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Banning the Burqa

Let's think for a moment.

2010-07-18, 16:32 #16

Member since Apr 2009 · 59 posts · Location: Bendigo
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In reply to post ID 2831

So, I shall put in my 5c worth of opinion.

As far as this discussion goes, we have three main issues:
1. Security.
2. Oppression of women.
3. Issues with racial discrimination.

So, for security:
There are many places in 'developed' countries where hoodies are being banned in shopping centers, and even other public spaces. This is because it shrouds the face and poses a small security risk. The thing is; it's really only in areas which are privately owned. It isn't the local governments who are banning hoodies, it's the owners of the shopping malls and such.
You can be asked to take off a mask or balaclava by the police because it's obscuring your face, but they aren't actually banned from being worn. Maybe, instead of banning the burqa, we should just impose the same rule. That if police ask you to take it off, you have to.

That way security isn't compromised, and people aren't insulted.

Now, here comes the hard-hitting issue: Oppression of women.
Right off the bat I suppose we can say that it's a bad thing to oppress women (except maybe the crazy ones who drive unnecessary 4wd monster trucks through cities).
But is the burqa a symbol for this oppression? It can certainly be viewed so, but it can also be viewed as merely a symptom. If a woman takes off her burqa, is she all of a sudden free from being ordered around by her male relatives and husband? I think not, otherwise they wouldn't wear them anyway.

The women who are being treated poorly are still going to be in the same situation. Only if the burqa is banned they are going to be caught between being viewed as scum, and doing something illegal. Is the token gesture against oppression really worth the price of making all those women's lives worse?

Issues with racial discrimination:
Now, I guess we can all see this one pretty clearly. If you ban the burqa, you should really ban all other religious symbols. Should we make all the nuns take off their habits? Must the pope take off his numerous pointy (and overly-opulent) hats?
This one boils down to looking like a real red-neck racist if you decide to ban the burqa. There's much else to it.

So, I know it's not perfect, but from my point of view, if you ban the burqa, you must ban pretty much all other head gear and religious symbols.
And even then, you have to commit to doing something else for all the women who are now not only oppressed, but also viewed as whores and harlots...

2010-07-18, 16:37 #17

Member since Apr 2010 · 32 posts · Location: Brisbane
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In reply to post ID 2831

problem with this is that it does effect others, 2nd hand smoke for instance is seen to have a high chance of allowing humans to develop lung cancer (thank you wikipedia). also it smells pretty terrible...so NYAH!

There are a lot of ways to avoid this though. i.e no smoking in public areas which is already in place. That is what I meant by "as long as you can stop it harming others". But on that point anyway, if you want to talk harm we may as well sue our partners, as sleeping next to someone gives off more radiation that a nuclear power plant. The world is a dangerous place, so 0 harm would be impossible. A 95% reduction in a products externality would be sufficient to let it be sold I would think.

2010-07-18, 22:50 #18

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Quote by NFG:
You didn't mention the security aspect of it, or the human rights component of a veil virtually synonymous with oppression of women, and you tied it all together with a remarkably self-absorbed blurt about how anything that doesn't affect you directly doesn't matter. Then you plopped a rotten cherry on top of the whole thing by misspelling niggers (or did you mean to call us all Nigers? Also a strange thing to do. What if I called you a Mali or a Colombia?)

firstly, i think the whole security concerns about the issue are played as a key concern when in reality they are not. from my knowledge of australian news and current affairs there hasnt been a robbery concerning a criminal donning a burqa as of yet (again to my knowledge).

secondly, if it is a religious practise/tradition even if it is oppressive of the women who abide by it, there is no way in which to prove that it does not help one "be closer with their god/s" or whether those who choose to wear it are truly oppressed.

in relation to the "anything that doesn't affect you directly doesn't matter", think of a tree falling in a forest where nobody can hear it, would anybody care about it falling if they didnt hear it or about it later on, no they would not. this goes for my view point on the issue at hand, if it does not affect my daily life, then i do not care about the issue.

finally, Niger is a country in Africa situated between Nigeria, Algeria, Chad and Benin, i assumed that Niger's would be the way to addess a group of their people...apparently not...it is in fact Nigerien

so...

Peace out Nigerien's

money cake..ayumyumyumyumyumyum

2010-07-18, 23:01 #19

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Quote by Kinkas:
There are a lot of ways to avoid this though. i.e no smoking in public areas which is already in place. That is what I meant by "as long as you can stop it harming others".

Sorry for the double post.

The problem with the no smoking in public places is that it only relates to buldings and the certain amount of meters away you have to be to be able to smoke...Queen St Mall for example, i cannot walk through there without an horrendous amount of fumes being forced down my throat. With the amount of people in Queen St I would call it a public place...but lo and behold there are still people smoking throughout.

money cake..ayumyumyumyumyumyum

(Administrator) 2010-07-18, 23:12 #20

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from my knowledge of australian news and current affairs there hasnt been a robbery concerning a criminal donning a burqa as of yet

As far as I know you're right. But then, we don't need to have bombs going off before we ban bombs, right? But yeah, I'm with you on this one. It's not a security problem, not yet, not like it has been in other countries. It's good to have the discussion though.

think of a tree falling in a forest where nobody can hear it, would anybody care about it falling if they didnt hear it or about it later on, no they would not.

Yeah, this will change.

And it's actually Nigerian.

BLEARGH

2010-07-18, 23:47 #21

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Quote by Nith Azra:
Issues with racial discrimination:
Now, I guess we can all see this one pretty clearly. If you ban the burqa, you should really ban all other religious symbols. Should we make all the nuns take off their habits? Must the pope take off his numerous pointy (and overly-opulent) hats?
This one boils down to looking like a real red-neck racist if you decide to ban the burqa. There's much else to it.

So, I know it's not perfect, but from my point of view, if you ban the burqa, you must ban pretty much all other head gear and religious symbols.
And even then, you have to commit to doing something else for all the women who are now not only oppressed, but also viewed as whores and harlots...

This is absurd. You would only ban all other religious items if this ban was based on religious grounds. Which it is not. It quite annoys me that you have the idea that because something is banned, every other group must be banned an equal amount. The ban stems from security and oppression of women in the countries that have already partaken in the ban. And as a civilised country, if we followed suit I would assume it would be on rational grounds. I mean come on, sacrificial ceremonies are banned, in your logic we should ban all other religious ceremonies. So no it is not clear....

The women who are being treated poorly are still going to be in the same situation. Only if the burqa is banned they are going to be caught between being viewed as scum, and doing something illegal. Is the token gesture against oppression really worth the price of making all those women's lives worse?

The point here is that they are made to wear it. It's a plain view example of oppression. The women think they have no choice but to wear it. The idea is to get rid of it and therefor make an example to the Islamic community that it isn't on to treat women like that. And if their husbands retaliate, in this country they will be prosecuted. Women's rights in western countries didn't all come to be at once, it was progressive and took many small but symbolic steps to get to where they are today. Banning the burqa I think would be that first step.

This post was edited on 2010-07-19, 12:17 by Kinkas.

(Administrator) 2010-07-19, 09:39 #22

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On facebook, someone had this to add:

Quote by ML:
The burqa is only perceived as repressive because of the isolated cases when the woman doesn't wear it out of choice - cases that are trumped up massively by most "white" media because bashing muslims is all the rage right now. It's very embarrassing actually.

Denmark for example wanted to ban the niqab (the one that covers head, face and body) but thought "Before we do this we should investigate how many would be affected by this ban!". Study found that there were no women at all wearing the niqab in Denmark. These bans are less about ending repression and more about kneejerking against Islam.

To which I replied:

Quote by NFG:
You're probably right. 100% of the muslims I've ever actually dealt with (we have a customer who runs an islamic shop) have been delightful people. I'm far more likely to trust a muslim than a christian, as a general rule. I don't really see much difference between the two: no matter how popular your cult is, it's still a cult. Time to move on, find another source for community cohesion in this world.

I don't like the burqa, I would prefer that people stop wearing them. I do not agree that we should be banning them with the blind hammer of law, however.

BLEARGH

2010-07-19, 12:16 #23

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Quote by NFG:
I don't like the burqa, I would prefer that people stop wearing them. I do not agree that we should be banning them with the blind hammer of law, however.

I would just be fine with it being subject to law and not exempt. i.e police can ask you to remove it, shopkeepers can ask you to remove it. Although banning it sends a clear message, this still solves the variety of problems bar the oppression.

And if this particular topic will allow, say the burqa was subject to law here in Australia. How then would you address the oppression of Islamic women if at all?

2010-07-19, 17:39 #24

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Quote by NFG:
And it's actually Nigerian.

thats where you're wrong Nigerian is the name for the group of people from Nigeria

whereas Nigeriens are from Niger

the things you learn

money cake..ayumyumyumyumyumyum

(Administrator) 2010-07-19, 18:30 #25

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Wait, they're not the same!?

World. Shattered.

BLEARGH

2010-11-04, 05:46 #26

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WOooooo! Topic revival.

I love posting on NFG world after not reading it for a while, makes life more fun.

Anyway, we were just in Paris and all over the place are these guys in camo and crepe hats ready to blend into the Louvre and deploy their guns in case of an attack because France decided to ban the burqa and stop religion being connected to public schools or something.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on this topic.

Firstly, the burqa is not actually a religious symbol. It is a social and cultural piece, so a few of the arguments contained here need checking.

Secondly, I think not allowing it in areas where faces should be seen is a good idea in societies where that is the norm. If I go into a shopping area, I am required to remove my helmet. To me this makes sense, because it makes everybody more comfortable in the idea that I am probably not a sociopath about to do something destructive. So bringing a rule into effect where nobody can have their face concealed (unless for medical reasons I guess?) would be fair and make the majority a little happier.

Thirdly, if I go to a muslim area I am warned to wear respectful clothing for that society, and cover areas such as my shoulders, and maybe even hair. I would do this to make sure I didn't get harassed and to fit in with that social norm, and I think that others should strive to do the same even if they are not comfortable intitially (as I would not be wearing top to toe covering in 30+ degrees I'm sure)

Nextedly, much of the discussion was about the burqa being worn in schools, and as a teacher I am in full support of it NOT being allowed in schools where that dress style is not the norm. In a society where face recognition is a vital part of our interaction, concealment from somebody in power in the room is not the best idea.

Anotherly, the topic of women oppression is an interesting one. I don't have much to add to the topic except something I have noticed personally which is a taught lack of respect for women by men in many Muslim groups (not saying all, ner ner can't pin me on being wrong!), which often extends right down to younger age groups disrespecting women older than them (ie, teachers). Perhaps the use of the burqa in societies where they are not the norm also helps continue the concept in the minds of these males that they are above females, a very large and serious problem.

Lastedly, I love NFGworld, so now NFG should post a reply. YAY!

Also Lastedly, I don't care if my spelling is off here. That's aimed mostly at you Gravis you spelling troll.

(Administrator) 2010-11-05, 11:41 #27

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the armed militia in France there to counter the growing civil unrest in that country?

As for the Burqa... It's annoying that we even have to have this conversation. I am more against people who refuse to consider the community's needs and desires as well as their own. People are petty little shits, and wearing a burqa in a place where no one wants you to do that is basically rude and inconsiderate. They should be allowed, for sure, but they should also be discouraged.

And in places where security is an issue, you're absolutely right. If you can't wear a helmet, you can't wear a burqa. Or a balaclava or ski goggles or any other silly thing that hides your face.

So, I suppose my opinion hasn't changed. I don't like it, I don't want it, but legislating against it is silly.

BLEARGH